Inside the Freemasons: Secrets, Symbols, and the Search for Meaning with Guy Anderson
Freemasonry has existed in the shadows of history for centuries.
To some, it’s a charitable fraternity built on tradition, symbolism, and community. To others, it’s something far more secretive — a hidden network tied to power, knowledge, and influence.
So what is it really?
In this episode of the Adventure Story Podcast, I’m joined by returning guest Guy Anderson — a former Freemason who offers a rare perspective from inside the organisation. Guy shares his personal journey: what drew him in, what he found as he progressed through the ranks, and why he ultimately chose to leave.
We explore the rituals, symbolism, and structure of Freemasonry, as well as the wider question that sits at the heart of it all:
👉 What does secrecy protect — and why does it matter?
This is a conversation about curiosity, belief, and the stories we tell ourselves about hidden systems and power.
In this episode, we explore:
- What Freemasonry actually is — beyond the myths
- Why people are drawn to secret societies
- The role of ritual, symbolism, and tradition
- Guy’s personal experience inside the lodge
- Why he chose to leave
- The fine line between curiosity and belief
- What secrecy really protects
Listen to Guy’s previous episode:
Links referenced in this episode:
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Transcript
Existing in the shadows of history for centuries, there's one organization that really does feel like the work of a thriller writer.
Speaker A:To some, they're a fraternal society built on charity, symbolism, and tradition.
Speaker A:To others, though, there's something far more secretive.
Speaker A:A hidden network shaping power, knowledge, and history itself.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker A:Today we're talking about the Freemasons.
Speaker A:Hey, I'm Luke.
Speaker A:I'm an author of archaeological adventure novels.
Speaker A:I travel the world looking for stories to put into my books and to share with you right here on the Adventure Story podcast.
Speaker A:Just quickly before we dive in, most podcasts grow through recommendations, so please share this with adventure lovers in your life.
Speaker A:It helps so much.
Speaker A:Lets get going.
Speaker A:Today though, we're exploring Freemasonry, not from the outside looking in, but through the experience of someone who joined, progressed through the ranks, and ultimately walked away.
Speaker A:Guy Anderson is our guide today.
Speaker A:He's an independent researcher who became a Freemason, then left the organization, questioning what it had become and what all that secrecy really protects.
Speaker A:Guy also featured in season one of the podcast when we talked about Tartaria.
Speaker A:A whole civilization washed from the history books, not in distant history, but just a few hundred years ago.
Speaker A:There's a link to that episode in the show notes, but it was when he mentioned in that episode that he'd seen the inside of the lodge, I knew I had to have him back on the podcast a second time.
Speaker A:So, Guy, welcome back to the Adventure Story podcast.
Speaker B:Thanks for having me back, Luke.
Speaker B:And as we said earlier on, it's about a year almost to the day since we last did this.
Speaker A:So let's go right to the beginning then.
Speaker A:For anyone who's never understood it, for someone who's tuning into this for the first time, what is Freemasonry?
Speaker A:At least officially?
Speaker B:Okay, There are two answers to that.
Speaker B:What is it now?
Speaker B:And what was it initially?
Speaker B:So what is it today?
Speaker B:It, from my experience and from what they project, it is an organization that raises money for charity.
Speaker B:What I saw was exactly that.
Speaker B:But I also saw people that had joined for different reasons to myself.
Speaker B:So I joined because I wanted to find out what couldn't be found in books.
Speaker B:And at the time, there wasn't so much online as there is today.
Speaker B:So I wanted to know what my father knew and why he wouldn't tell me what he knew and why it was so secretive.
Speaker B:What, what, what were they holding?
Speaker B:Was this like the Vatican vaults that were going to be, you know, unleashed?
Speaker B:So I joined for that reason.
Speaker B:A lot of people joined because they Want to raise money for charity.
Speaker B:They, you know, maybe they're in the Rotary Club or whatever and they like that kind of.
Speaker B:That, that kind of thing.
Speaker B:Maybe they get some sort of personal gratification from helping others, which you'd like to think we all do.
Speaker B:But there were also people that joined to use it to accelerate their career.
Speaker B:And there were also people that joined because they were lonely, so they were increasing their social circles.
Speaker B:They might have moved to an area and not known anyone, so thought, well, you know, a Masonic lodge nearby, I might join and, you know, then I'm going to have a group of friends that I can call brother.
Speaker A:So you, you've mentioned a lot of good reasons there, right?
Speaker A:Given to charity, connection, community.
Speaker A:How do you go about joining?
Speaker A:You, you presumably can't just knock on the door and say, I want.
Speaker A:I want in you.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker B:You quite literally can do that.
Speaker B:Back in the day, you couldn't, of course, but, but, but now they.
Speaker B:We were in Exeter a few months ago, and outside the lodge in the city center, there were two Freemasons that were actually sort of recruiting, if you like, inviting people.
Speaker B:It was a Saturday, they were inviting people to come in and have a look around.
Speaker B:And I, and I do know the lodge I was at in London.
Speaker B:One of the members there, he'd moved to the area, didn't know anyone, and he'd gone to the lodge and said, I'm interested in joining the Freemasons.
Speaker B:And they put him in touch with our secretary and it's about a year.
Speaker B:Normally, you.
Speaker B:You're interviewed and then they do checks they used to do.
Speaker B:I don't know what they do now, but they used to do background checks thoroughly.
Speaker B:And then you'll be invited to a function and the other members will get a feel for you and then they'll decide whether or not you're going to be invited.
Speaker A:That's why I'm very interested to have this conversation with you, to separate the fact from fiction, because we've all got these perceptions of.
Speaker A:Of these things, you know, and some of them, of course, may be true and some of them not.
Speaker A:So tell me about that then, because you didn't stumble into this casually.
Speaker A:You said you were approached by someone.
Speaker A:Tell me, tell me how that occurred.
Speaker B:Well, my.
Speaker B:My dad had joined when I was a kid and, you know, I was fascinated by it, but he.
Speaker B:He had.
Speaker B:By the time I was interested in joining myself, he had stopped going because he was.
Speaker B:No, he was working in the city, worked for a big plc, and he used it.
Speaker B:He used it, he enjoyed it, but he used it, the handshake, the connections, you know, things happened a lot more swiftly and he got deals perhaps other people might not have got without, you know, having, you know, that, that Masonic connection.
Speaker B:Because it's not necessarily just the handshake and Freemasons looking after each other.
Speaker B:It is the fact that you make a promise to support and do nothing to harm another Freemason.
Speaker B:So if I'm in, if I'm looking for, I don't know, I want an extension built on my house.
Speaker B:Two people come to give me a quote.
Speaker B:One's a Freemason, the other one isn't.
Speaker B:The Freemason has made a promise to never do anything to harm me.
Speaker B:The other person hasn't.
Speaker B:So if I do the deal with the Freemason and my extension doesn't go to plan, I, I will contact his Lodge and I'll say, you know, I trusted him.
Speaker B:He said he wouldn't, you know, he's made a vow, a promise not to do anything to harm another Freemason.
Speaker B:This man has ripped me off, he's deceived me, and that, that will then come up in his Lodge and, and he'll be approached and, and they'll say to him, you know, you're giving our Lodge a bad name and you've got a problem that you've caused another Freemason, you need to address this.
Speaker B:What are you going to do about it?
Speaker B:But, but the Lodge I was at, I could take it a lot higher than that, to the point where, you know, you know, you, you could, in some cases get people kicked out.
Speaker B:So, so it's the trust.
Speaker B:I, I, in theory, you can trust another one because they've made a promise to, to look after each other, and that goes back thousands of years.
Speaker A:So tell me about that, then.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:The origins of the Order.
Speaker B:The origins are stonemasons.
Speaker B:Sacred geometry.
Speaker B:So the architects that had knowledge of sacred geometry and cymatics that understanded that.
Speaker B:Understood, Sorry.
Speaker B:The golden ratio.
Speaker B:How to build things that resonate.
Speaker B:How to align structures with the Earth's grid and constellations so they vibrate at a frequency of 432Hz.
Speaker B:So anybody inside the building feels good.
Speaker B:You feel good.
Speaker B:People aren't ill.
Speaker B:Things grow better and more substantially.
Speaker B:And so it was understanding that.
Speaker B:And the master stone mason who was the architect for King Solomon's Temple was someone called Hiram Abiff.
Speaker B:And he had apprentices under him, lots of stonemasons under him.
Speaker B:And they had secrets.
Speaker B:They weren't sharing this information on how to build the way they did and why.
Speaker B:And they.
Speaker B:He was approached by three, what they call the three Jews.
Speaker B:Now, this isn't Jews as in my mother.
Speaker B:I'm not talking about Judaism.
Speaker B:I'm talking about the Jews.
Speaker B:They would all call Julian.
Speaker B:And they asked Hiram Abiff.
Speaker B:They pretended that they.
Speaker B:Because by this time the number of stonemasons under him that, that were apprenticing underneath him at different levels was vast.
Speaker B:And they made out that in it it was dark.
Speaker B:They're in an alleyway inside the temple.
Speaker B:And they say to him, we've, we want to know a bit more information.
Speaker B:What can you share with us?
Speaker B:And he said, well, I don't think you are stonemasons.
Speaker B:I'm not sharing anything with you.
Speaker B:I don't recognize you.
Speaker B:And they, so they, they killed him.
Speaker B:That, that's why Freemasons look like they're going to a funeral.
Speaker B:They wear morning suits because you're in constant mourning as a Freemason for Hiram Abiff.
Speaker B:He refused to give the information, the sacred geometry, the handshake, the passwords.
Speaker B:He refused to give any of that over to these.
Speaker B:And he was killed because of that.
Speaker B:So it's kind of a respect.
Speaker B:And that's why we wear morning suits.
Speaker B:I say, we say.
Speaker B:I haven't been for about seven years, but.
Speaker B:And over the years it changed from being stonemasons to becoming Freemasons.
Speaker B:And that Freemason stands for free and accepted Mason.
Speaker B:That's it.
Speaker B:You're.
Speaker B:You're a free person.
Speaker B:You're free to join, and there's no reason why you can't join.
Speaker B:You're not keeping a secret.
Speaker B:You're able to join.
Speaker B:You're not hiding anything, and they're accepting you for who you are with nothing.
Speaker B:When you join, you, you remove everything.
Speaker B:So if you've got a nice watch, you take it off.
Speaker B:You know, you go in with no money in your pockets and they accept you with nothing.
Speaker B:So you are a free man and an accepted mason.
Speaker B:So it's symbolic.
Speaker B:You know, I, I wouldn't know where to begin building a temple.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:But you, but you still progress through the ranks in exactly the same way as you would have done when they were building King Solomon's Temple.
Speaker B:As a stonemason, you still go through the ranks.
Speaker B:You start off as an apprentice, and eventually you become a master mason, which is what my rank is.
Speaker B:But there are 30 beyond that, and beyond that another 66 dark degrees.
Speaker A:Okay, so you talk about this knowledge in terms of the building the temple.
Speaker A:The, the are these seek Are these things that the order continue to hold?
Speaker A:These.
Speaker A:Are these literal facts and figures?
Speaker A:You know, this is in a shady archive somewhere on, on parchment?
Speaker A:Or am I being.
Speaker A:Or am I being dramatic and a thriller writer over this?
Speaker A:You know, is this, is this a literal thing or is it more metaphorical than literal instructions?
Speaker B:It's metaphorical now, but the information will be held higher up.
Speaker B:But of course, it's not something that would be used today.
Speaker B:So, you know, people, the people aren't joining and climbing through the ranks so they can understand sacred geometry or cymatics or frequency and vibration.
Speaker B:They're not looking to build something.
Speaker B:You know, that information is known, but it's.
Speaker B:That's very well buried, you know, that's why Tartaria was wiped out, to finish that off.
Speaker B:And Tartaria, you know, is an echo of Atlantis and, and heavily connected to King Solomon.
Speaker B:King Solomon was one of the first rulers of Tartaria.
Speaker B:So, you know, that that's now a side issue.
Speaker B:It's not practicing any of this geometry.
Speaker B:But, but, but it, so it's, it's more symbolic and.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, so, so what, but what happens at the highest level?
Speaker B:We don't know, but they're certainly not ascending to that, the 33rd degree, so they can find out how to build a pyramid.
Speaker B:You know that that's not why you would do it.
Speaker B:You're doing that for power, and you're doing it because you want that, that knowledge.
Speaker B:I think there's something very attractive about knowing something other people don't and can't know.
Speaker B:There's something about that, you know.
Speaker B:So, yeah, it's just symbolic really, these days, because it's, it's so, you know, it's thousands of years old.
Speaker B:Freemasonry.
Speaker B:People think that it's relatively new.
Speaker B:People think that it's about things that it isn't.
Speaker B:But you'll tend to get those opinions from people that have never joined.
Speaker B:So the opinion of someone who isn't a Freemason about Freemasonry is the equivalent of my giving you a lecture on, I don't know, computer programming when I wouldn't know where to begin.
Speaker B:It's nonsensical.
Speaker B:You cannot talk about Freemasonry unless you've been in it.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's pointless.
Speaker A:And that's why this conversation with someone who has been behind the curtain, as it were, is so interesting for me, because it's something that comes up in my books when we say they're sort of guarding secrets.
Speaker A:You know, that is a that is a, that is a literal thing.
Speaker A:You know, you don't know perhaps what they are.
Speaker A:Maybe they are to do with the sacred geometry.
Speaker A:Maybe there are other things that, that, that have accrued over the last thousand years.
Speaker A:But there is something more than the connection of people.
Speaker A:There is something, something tangible that the, that they know that the rest of us don't effectively is what you're, is what you're sort of saying.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And the higher up you go, each time you're, you're raised through the ranks and you, you rise a level as, as most people know, they're 33.
Speaker B:Each time you rise, you're given more information and it's usually tools.
Speaker B:They'll present two tools to you.
Speaker B:Most people know the set square and compass.
Speaker B:That's just, that's kind of the most commonly known.
Speaker B:But there are, there are lots of, lots of other tools, and each one's explained to you as you raise through the ranks.
Speaker B:But what happens at the 33rd degree, that's invitation only.
Speaker B:So you don't progress to that.
Speaker B:You stop at the 32nd degree, and then you'll be invited to become a supreme general if they think that you're worthy of it.
Speaker B:So when you see people like Jay Z going around doing all that, they are not 33rd degree Freemasons.
Speaker B:They want you to think that they are.
Speaker B:But the 33rd degree has more to do with your breeding.
Speaker A:I see who yours, who your father was and such, like grandfather before him.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And, you know, and if, you know, Charles Windsor was to walk in the building, does he bow before you, the Freemasons?
Speaker A:And from the things I understand, there is a lot of emphasis on symbolism.
Speaker A:And you talked about it there.
Speaker A:You shared like the symbol of the.
Speaker A:You placed your index fingers together and your thumbs together and made like a sort of triangle shape.
Speaker A:Symbolism.
Speaker A:There's ritual, there's, there's, there's secrecy.
Speaker A:Are there examples of these symbols or even language or even phrases that we might have seen, you know, perhaps carved into our buildings or people would have said them or whatever, but we won't have realized.
Speaker A:We or me.
Speaker A:You would have realized, but me as a layman, as an outsider, would not think anything of it.
Speaker A:You know, but to the initiated, that's like, that's, that means something.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:So one, you know, obviously we, each time you go through an initiation, so you start off as an apprentice, they called it entered apprentice.
Speaker B:Then you have fellow craft, then you have master.
Speaker B:Master is where I got to.
Speaker B:So, yes, there are, there are phrases that People are using every day and they have no idea what they mean.
Speaker B:For example, don't give him the third degree.
Speaker B:So if I was giving you a hard time, someone might say, don't give him the third degree.
Speaker B:The third degree is when you become a Master Mason.
Speaker B:The closest.
Speaker B:Because I can't.
Speaker B:You know, people say, why don't you just tell everybody what happens?
Speaker B:Well, there are two reasons why I can't do that.
Speaker B:One is I promised not to.
Speaker B:And that means something.
Speaker B:If you promise somebody something, that you're not going to share something, or you promise to do something that has to count for something.
Speaker B:And if you're the sort of person that makes a promise, no matter how long ago it was and no matter to who it was, and you break that, then what does that say about you?
Speaker B:And secondly, it spoils it for the people that want to join, and I'm not prepared to do that.
Speaker B:My son wanted to know everything.
Speaker B:I knew I wouldn't tell him.
Speaker B:He joined left after a year.
Speaker B:It's not for me, Dad.
Speaker B:I wish you had told me, but I didn't want to because it's not my job to decide what is and isn't for you.
Speaker B:So, yeah, so don't give them a third degree.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And that is because when you go through the third degree ceremony, it's.
Speaker B:It's a bit daunting.
Speaker B:It's the closest I can describe it to.
Speaker B:Would be attending your own funeral.
Speaker B:So if you imagine, you know, you are being buried, I mean, it's not literally in the ground, but it's all symbolic.
Speaker B:If you imagine that process, it's kind of like that, and then being raised and then having a wake afterwards.
Speaker B:And you're the star guest.
Speaker A:I see.
Speaker A:Now.
Speaker A:We went to a place in Portugal called Quinta di Reguilera.
Speaker A:And within the estate there is a spiral staircase that goes down into the ground.
Speaker A:They call it the inverted tower.
Speaker A:And apparently I was reading that the inverted tower was used for.
Speaker A:For an initiation, as you've just described, the initiate would be put at the bottom.
Speaker A:And spreading out from the inverted tower are loads of tunnels that go under the ground.
Speaker A:And in complete darkness, they would have to find their way through these tunnels into the light as like a symbol of a rebirth, you know?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's weird because you are kind of.
Speaker B:They go through a mock kind of.
Speaker B:You are killed, you're struck over the head like Hiram Abiff was, and you die.
Speaker B:And it's dark, you can't see anything.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And then all of a sudden, two.
Speaker B:Two freemasons raise you and they use a different hand grip if you like.
Speaker B:So, so the people always say, what's the handshake?
Speaker B:It's called a grip or a token.
Speaker B:And a different grip performs different things.
Speaker B:So if you were lying on the ground and I just hold your hand to lift you up, it might be a lot harder than if I used a different hold.
Speaker B:It held your arm or your wrist or your hand in a different way to, to lift you up.
Speaker B:So it's to do with that.
Speaker B:But it's.
Speaker B:But, but typically most people just use the same, the, the, the, the same handshake.
Speaker B:But in these rituals, they explain why there is a different handshake for this, why there is a different password for it, and why there are different tools.
Speaker B:Because the further you got through stonemasonry back in the time of King Solomon, the more tools you were given.
Speaker B:So they wouldn't just give you everything on day one because, you know, you wouldn't know what to do, you know, or how to use them.
Speaker A:So tell me a bit if you are able to.
Speaker A:Or it's something that you can talk about.
Speaker A:Sort of the symbols that we might see in architecture or in the lodge itself, or are there symbols like that that sort of mean certain things that I might.
Speaker B:Set square and compass.
Speaker B:It's always set, square and compass.
Speaker B:I mean, there are other symbols, but that's really what you're looking for.
Speaker B:And that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
Speaker B:It might mean that the Freemasons donated money to help with the construction of that particular building.
Speaker B:Or in the case of say, the Statue of Liberty, which is really the Statue of Apollo that they have, they have taken that.
Speaker B:So the cornerstone on the Statue of Liberty has the set square and compass.
Speaker B:And it's, it was, it was founded, if you like, by the Grandmaster of the Lodge of New York when they claimed the Statue of Liberty as their own.
Speaker B:Because Statue of Liberty is hundreds of years old.
Speaker B:You know, it's, it's not from France at all.
Speaker B:That's all complete and utter nonsense.
Speaker B:It's an ether pulling.
Speaker B:It's an ether harnessing machine.
Speaker B:It's a power station.
Speaker B:But at the same time, the, the cloak of.
Speaker B:It is worshiping Apollo.
Speaker B:It's a statue of Apollo or Helios, depending on where you, which way you lean.
Speaker B:But it's worshipping the, the sky, the sun, the ether, and the cornerstone.
Speaker B:As I said, when the Freemasons commandeered the Statue of Liberty, they put a cornerstone on it to say it's now ours.
Speaker B:They mark it as theirs.
Speaker B:So they'll put the set square and compass on there.
Speaker B:So that's what you're typically looking for.
Speaker B:They don't tend to use other symbology.
Speaker B:You might see the all seeing eye, like on the, the American dollar bill above the pyramid with the floating cap, you know, the, the, the capstone.
Speaker B:You might see that floating sometimes above.
Speaker B:But yeah, all of this, like people will often say, oh, you know, I was watching Elon Musk the other day and he was sat there doing that.
Speaker A:So this is the thumb and the fingers together gesture.
Speaker B:Again, that's nothing to do with anything.
Speaker B:That's balancing yourself.
Speaker B:If you want to balance yourself, that's what you do.
Speaker B:And that's why they do it.
Speaker B:People say, oh, it's all symbolic.
Speaker B:Look, that's the Freemasons.
Speaker B:The only people that say that are people that have never been inside a lodge as a Freemason.
Speaker B:But apparently, and this is one of the funny things, allegedly, and I've heard this quite a lot, especially all over TikTok.
Speaker B:And it apparently is everywhere.
Speaker B:All over TikTok.
Speaker B:I'm a 33rd degree Freemason that's been paid by the Freemasons to tell you all this stuff.
Speaker B:So each time I talk about it, it's because they've asked me to do it.
Speaker B:So yeah, I'm a 33rd degree Freemason, which means I'm best friends with the Duke of Kent, the Grand Master.
Speaker B:I knock around with the royal family and prime ministers and presidents and.
Speaker B:Yeah, and this is something I wasn't aware of until recently, that I'd raised to that level with, with.
Speaker B:Without the right breeding and blood group.
Speaker B:And I always say the same thing whenever I hear that, that I'm a 33rd degree Freemason, I go and tell my butler, that's funny.
Speaker A:It must be nice to be talked about, to be fair that people are, people are listening to what you do and taking it seriously enough to come up with conspiracy theories about you.
Speaker B:Yeah, and I say check my background.
Speaker B:You know, I was a tattoo artist that wrote for tattoo magazines and you know, I co presented a show on TV about tattoos and stuff.
Speaker B:And, and, but, and that anchor was a reminder to, to remain grounded.
Speaker B:But apparently it's not an anchor at all.
Speaker B:It's a Masonic symbol.
Speaker A:Okay, so.
Speaker A:So assuming that you're telling the truth and you did leave, assuming your story is true at the moment, I think you are, I think you're.
Speaker A:I wouldn't have you on the podcast if I thought you were lying.
Speaker A:You know, there would Be no reason to do it.
Speaker A:Why did you sort of step away from it?
Speaker A:What?
Speaker A:Why did you step away from it?
Speaker A:And what was the moment or the realization that led to that, moving away from that community?
Speaker B:There were a number of reasons, and I don't want to be flippant, but I was bored.
Speaker B:You see, I lived in Northampton and the lodge met at Great Queen street.
Speaker B:As I said, I was at the Grand Lodge of the United Kingdom on Great Queen street in London.
Speaker B:They own the whole block.
Speaker B:And I would ask people to jump onto Google Maps or Google Earth and have a look at the Grand Lodge, because from above, because the whole block is a coffin.
Speaker B:It's shaped all of the buildings that they own on this little island, if you like.
Speaker B:And that's what it looks like from above, is shaped as a coffin.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And it's again, going back to the fact you're in mourning for Hiram Biff.
Speaker B:So I would go from Northampton and as I said, I was a tattoo artist, so I would have to take normally the day off work because you'd have to get there for about 4 o' clock in the afternoon.
Speaker B:It would take me a couple of hours to get there in traffic, so I. I'd.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And we didn't open till 11.
Speaker B:So really, if I. I could do a couple of hours work possibly, and then go home, get changed, get the ink and everything off me, jump in the car, drive to London.
Speaker B:You know, you always were pushed to invite guests, visitors from other lodges, to boost the numbers, really.
Speaker B:You paid for them, you paid for their dinner, you paid for their drinks, and you'd get home about midnight.
Speaker B:And I went to quite a few meetings where sometimes there weren't enough people there to actually have a meeting because not everyone was present.
Speaker B:So there were gaps.
Speaker B:And the odd meeting where one of them would just walk.
Speaker B:You weren't supposed to have your phones on.
Speaker B:You're not allowed.
Speaker B:And this is something a lot of people get confused about.
Speaker B:You're not allowed to talk about politics and you're not allowed to talk about religion.
Speaker A:So just to.
Speaker A:Just to pause for that, the religion is irrelevant.
Speaker A:So you could.
Speaker A:You'll have men from all faiths, all backgrounds, who are.
Speaker A:Who are part of that lodge.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:People from.
Speaker B:From all different faces.
Speaker B:It's not something that comes up in a con.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker B:We just don't care when.
Speaker B:When you're in amongst it.
Speaker B:And I'm saying the royal way, I'm sure there are people that do, but in theory, yeah, the two things you can't discuss is Religion and politics and the one thing you're not allowed to do is write anything down.
Speaker A:Why is that then?
Speaker A:What's the writing down?
Speaker B:Because as soon as you've written it down, somebody else can, can access it.
Speaker B:You could lose it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So if I start writing down, you know, certain things, then, you know, I could lose that.
Speaker B:Someone else could see it.
Speaker A:So you, you mean to say then that for you, you, there was no dramatic, you know, there was no dramatic reason why you turned your back on it.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker B:And I, I just got to the point where I would sit in a meeting and there wouldn't be much going on and all of a sudden one of the higher ranking Freemasons to say, oh, I've just got to take this call, it's a job I'm on, you know, they were in the flying squad at Scotland Yard.
Speaker B:A lot of the people that were in my lodge and they'd go out the room and they'd come back in and they'd be on their phones and there would be people who hadn't learned their lines, but it didn't matter.
Speaker B:They'd sit there with their book, reading from the book where you're supposed to have taken the time to memorize it and not refer to your book, but it didn't matter because, you know, they were the Chief Inspector and you know, and after people in the lodge were beneath them so they weren't about to get, you know, chastised for it.
Speaker B:And where the rest of us were putting in the hours and doing the homework, you know, there was something once a month called Lodge of Instruction where you went there to learn and rehearse things.
Speaker B:I went to a couple in London, I drive down after work, get there and find that nobody else had turned up and they were the ones that needed it more than I did and I just got fed up with it.
Speaker B:And then the, the icing on the cake really was for me when my son was.
Speaker B:I'd stopped going for about two years and I went back, I contacted the secretary who was the advisor for the pro, is David Cameron's advisor for the Met.
Speaker B:And I said to him, I just messaged him and said, do us a favor, my youngest son wants to join.
Speaker B:He's been banging on about it.
Speaker B:He turns 18 in A.
Speaker B:This is 10 years ago, turns 18 in a few weeks.
Speaker B:I'd like to get him in on his 18th birthday.
Speaker B:Can you pull some strings?
Speaker B:And he said, leave it with me.
Speaker B:I'd raised a lot of money for them.
Speaker B:I, you know, I turned up to every bloody meeting.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And he said, yeah, no problem.
Speaker B:We got there and he was an hour late.
Speaker B:We were all sat there for an hour.
Speaker B:And I said to him, where have you been?
Speaker B:And he said, oh, we've been in a meeting in Parliament.
Speaker B:I said, all right, what for?
Speaker B:He said, well, we were just deciding who the next Prime Minister is going to be.
Speaker B:I said, what do you mean you're deciding?
Speaker B:I thought that went to a vote.
Speaker B:He said, no, it's all theater.
Speaker B:No one counts your votes.
Speaker B:And obviously I already knew people didn't really count the votes, that it's all show.
Speaker B:And I said, who's it going to be?
Speaker B:He said, boris Johnson.
Speaker B:And I said, well, what does Boris think about that?
Speaker B:Because we knew at the time he wanted to be the Prime Minister.
Speaker B:But does he really.
Speaker B:Is it all show?
Speaker B:He said, no, he actually doesn't.
Speaker B:I said, right, so why is this happening?
Speaker B:Because he doesn't want the consequences of not.
Speaker B:And I realized then the power.
Speaker B:Yeah, the power that they have.
Speaker B:And so literally, it was almost like I was in a social club for the Met Police and I was the only one who wasn't privy to what was really going on.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, tell me about the link to the Templars, because that's something that's a topic that I have written about in the past and interests me and interests people.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So obviously the original Knights Templar, I mean, most people know who they were, they were guns for hire.
Speaker B:But I do believe, actually, despite the fact that we're now told that they weren't heretic and.
Speaker B:And basically they were an army that were very wealthy because people were paying them a lot of money to protect them on.
Speaker B:On their pilgrimage that they became very, very powerful.
Speaker B:And obviously they were supported by the King of Portugal.
Speaker B:And Portugal really is the.
Speaker B:The home of the Knights Templar.
Speaker B:It is theirs and.
Speaker B:And always was.
Speaker B:Tamar is.
Speaker B:Is where that happens.
Speaker B:But anyway.
Speaker B:And they actually do worship Baphomet, but Baphomet isn't what we've been told.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:It's supposed to be this demonic figure, but actually, some people say it represents light and dark, you know, both sexes above and below.
Speaker A:But how does that link to the.
Speaker A:To the Freemasons?
Speaker A:That's what I'm interested in.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So when you.
Speaker B:When you get to the third degree, when you become a Master Mason, you're invited to join Chapter.
Speaker B:So Chapter is a part of Freemasonry.
Speaker B:You need to go through it if you want to accelerate up a high enough rank.
Speaker B:And there are Other ones, it doesn't have to be the Knights Templar that you choose, but there are other offshoots, if you like.
Speaker B:And that's how you accelerate to the fourth degree, fifth, sixth, seventh and so on.
Speaker B:Scottish rite and what have you.
Speaker B:So they call it Scottish Rite, but it's chapter.
Speaker B:And they'll say to you, would you like to join the Knights Templar?
Speaker B:And if you want to, you can.
Speaker B:And the reason I didn't is because I was already starting to get a bit bored.
Speaker B:And then they said to me, oh, there's a lot of learning.
Speaker B:And I thought, well, I'm the only bugger that bothers to learn the stuff here.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, I understand.
Speaker A:That makes sense.
Speaker A:That makes sense.
Speaker A:So to sort of wrap things up, I normally ask people what books and legends spark their imagination and got them into these sorts of things.
Speaker A:But for you, because we had that conversation last time you were on the podcast, I'm wondering to phrase this slightly differently now.
Speaker A:There are loads of books and films and stories around the Freemasons, the Templars, all of these sorts of things.
Speaker A:Have you seen any that you think did it?
Speaker A:Well, got it right.
Speaker B:Not one.
Speaker B:I've never seen anything.
Speaker B:And I've been sent an awful lot of links as well to different things.
Speaker B:Oh, you should watch this.
Speaker B:You'll find this interesting because you were Freemason.
Speaker B:And I'll.
Speaker B:And I'll watch it for a couple of seconds.
Speaker B:I think, well, that that's not even how the initiation works.
Speaker B:It doesn't happen like that.
Speaker B:So, no, I've never seen anything at all and I've never read anything that is even close.
Speaker B:If I was to write a book on exactly what happened and exactly how it all works, let's say I got higher than I was because the book wouldn't be that interesting.
Speaker B:If I'm writing about 3 degrees out of 33, then.
Speaker B:Then I'm missing, you know, a big chunk of the book, aren't I, really?
Speaker B:There's a lot of chapters that aren't going to be included.
Speaker B:If I was to write exactly what happened, then I would expect to have a problem.
Speaker B:You know, I would expect a knock on the door.
Speaker B:Maybe they wouldn't knock.
Speaker B:But I think I would be asking for trouble.
Speaker B:And I think the reason I don't get any trouble when I talk about Freemasonry is because I'm not exposing anything or anyone in particular.
Speaker B:I'm telling you things you can find online.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But if I told you exactly, you know, what the handshake is, what the passwords, are what they mean, why, why they're said and start giving you information that that's in the book that if you like, it's a little bit like the Bible.
Speaker B:If I start sharing all of that sort of stuff then I would expect to have a problem, and rightly so because I promised I wouldn't share that stuff.
Speaker A:Guy, that is fantastic.
Speaker A:I've got.
Speaker A:I feel like I've had a real lesson behind the curtain here, but yet I've got more questions that I need to find a 33rd degree Mason to come onto the podcast next time for sure.
Speaker B:Well, there'll be somebody that comments that knows one.
Speaker B:It'll be their next door neighbours, window cleaners, old bosses, husbands, cousin.
Speaker A:Tell us where people can find you and your books online.
Speaker B:The best place is my website Luke, which is thetartarian empire.co.uk.
Speaker A:thank you so much Guy.
Speaker A:That was great.
Speaker A:This is the Adventure Story Podcast.
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Speaker A:Head to lukerichardsonauthor.com forward/adventuresociety and if if you're a fan of adventure stories like the ones we've talked about today, definitely some Freemasons involved.
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